Memories of a Political Prisoner: A Conversation with Jehangir Bader

On July 5th, 1977 Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was ousted in a military coup by General Zia-ul-Haq. Mr. Bhutto was initially placed under house arrest and then in September 1977 he was transferred to Kot Lakpat jail in Lahore on charges of ordering the murder of a political opponent. In 1978 Bhutto was shifted to the Central jail in Rawalpindi where in March 1979, he was sentenced to death by hanging on a 4 to 5 judgment handed down by the Supreme Court of Pakistan. After rejecting countless clemency appeals from around the world, General Zia-ul-Haq ordered the execution of Prime Minister Bhutto. In the pre-dawn hours of April 4th 1979, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was executed at the gallows in Central jail Rawalpindi.

Along with Zulfikar Ali Bhutto his daughter Benazir and his wife Nusrat, hundreds of leaders and workers of the Pakistan People’s Party were imprisoned throughout Pakistan. Most remained in jail for several years and were subjected to torture. Pakistan’s track record on human rights violations, particularly in its jails, remains abysmal. Amnesty International states that at least 100 prisoners die each year from torture related incidents in Pakistani jails. According to a Human Rights Watch letter dated October 10th, 2003, “Torture is routinely used in Pakistan, both to obtain confessions in criminal cases and against political opponents. Acts of torture by military agencies primarily serve the purpose of "punishing" an errant politician, political activist or journalist.”

Jehangir Bader was the first PPP leader to be arrested in August 1977. Throughout General Zia-ul-Haq’s military dictatorship Mr. Bader was periodically incarcerated in various jails of Punjab for about seven years. He was also imprisoned within the Lahore Fort, also known as the Shahi Qilla, where he was subjected to torture. In addition to Mr. Bader hundreds of other PPP leaders and workers were arrested and tortured.

Mr. Bader was the first of several political prisoners to be sentenced to an unusually cruel punishment of public flogging, a punishment meted out by the Military Courts set up by General Zia-ul-Haq. He also became known for his unique manner of defying General Zia’s ban on political protests. After undergoing the punishment of lashings Mr. Bader often walked around the grounds of the jail exposing his wounded back.

Mr. Bader is currently the Secretary General of the Pakistan People’s Party. He has been a member of the Pakistan People’s Party since 1968, when he became a student leader at the Punjab University. He was arrested for the first time during the movement against General Ayub. From 1985-1995 Mr. Bader was the party President in Punjab and until early 2003 he was also the President of the PPP overseas for more than five years. Mr. Bader was also an elected MPA and MNA during the elections of 1988. During Benazir Bhutto’s government, Mr. Bader was a Minister for Housing, Science and Technology and for Petroleum and Natural Resources from 1988-1991. He was also a Federal Minister for Political and Religious Affairs when the second government of Ms. Bhutto was dismissed in 1996.

In April 2003, the Supreme Court released Mr. Bader after 20 months in jail under the National Accountability Bureau investigation.

In an interview on December 20th, 2003 at his home in Lahore, Mr. Bader spoke to me about his years in the political arena of Pakistan, and in particular about being a political prisoner during General Zia’s military dictatorship.

Excerpts of this interview were also published in The News on Sunday in 2004.

December 20, 2003

Lahore, Pakistan

By Fawzia Naqvi

FN: Please tell us a little bit about your background, more along the lines of where you grew up and what kind of family you grew up in.

JB: I have a very humble background. I belong to a family of small business people. My forefathers were living in the city of Lahore, the walled city of Lahore. About 300 years we are living in Lahore. My forefathers had a business of fruit and vegetables and then they had involved themselves in wrestling competitions. We also continued the business of fish after partition in Lahore. Actually we were the monopolists both before and after partition. My whole family lived together; we were having a joint family system and having the business, then the wrestling.

In 1953 there was Martial Law in Lahore headed by General Azam Khan. Due to unknown reasons and unforeseen circumstances they captured our main shops at the Chowk; they acquired the place under the pretext that they are going to widen the Chowk. We had to vacate our shops there, the whole Chowk was emptied. They acquired our shops, they gave us substitute shops near the market but actually that was our main business place. They disturbed us.

FN: What part of the Walled City?

JB: Chowk Wazir Khan, the very famous Chowk of Lahore, in the heart of city, the famous mosque. I was born very near to the Chowk. Actually in the Chowk Wazir Khan we had our main business center, which was acquired in 1953 by the military regime. They made a police station there because there was a movement and they wanted it for the police and the army to sit there. They acquired it and we were displaced but anyhow we continued. But then our joint family system was finished after a few years and then in 1960 we started our cloth business. My father invested the shares which we got from his family in the clothing business. We had our shops also. Then in the year 1962-63 the Rafan Corn Oil Company, an American company came to Pakistan. When they came to Lahore they chose our family and gave their sole distribution of Rafan Oil , which my brother still runs. During 1967 we were involved in the business of film. We made a film. There was a very famous film character actor, Alluddin, he was a family friend of ours. So we had a joint production with him and the famous Punjabi movie, “Dil Da Jani”, which was a hit on the screen later on after completion it was exhibited by us in the Nagina cinema in Lahore. It was a Golden Jubilee film.


FN: So how old were you then?

JB: Well, now I am 55 plus. I was a very young man then. I was in college when all of this was going on.

FN: Where were you educated?

JB: After the mission school of Forman Christian College, I went for two years to Islamia College then I came to Punjab University at the Hailey College of Commerce. Then I went to Law College at the Punjab University where I did my B. Comm honors M. Comm, L.L.B and then M.A Political Science. Then I had been teaching Mercantile Law at the Punjab University for 5 years, from 1972 onwards.

In 1972 when the People’s Party government came I was a student. Mr. Bhutto made me a member of the Film Censor Board.

FN: What in your memory politicized you as a young man…or was a defining moment for you to say ok now I will get politically involved?

JB: I have been in politics since my student times. I was a student leader actually, a debater. I used to go to other cities for debates. That brought me in to the politics of colleges so I contested the election of my college, Hailey College of Commerce and I was the President of the college.

When the movement against President General Ayub Khan started I was with Bhutto and his ideas, before becoming the President of this college. In 1966-67 when Zulfikar Ali Bhutto started his Awami politics I was one of the supporters amongst the students. We were few who decided to side with Bhutto.

FN: And why did you decide to side with Mr. Bhutto?

JB: The struggle of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was actually our struggle. For our overall respect in the society. For a qualitative change in the society. Before that if you studied politics there was no position which lies with the lower classes and the middle classes. It was the feudal politics. He gave us a sense of participation in politics and governance and he has shown us the way, how we can fight and how we can get our rights.

FN: But Bhutto was a feudal himself. So what did you see in common with him?

JB: Thought has nothing to do with the class of a person. Thought is something different. It comes in to the mind of a person, it comes from heavens. That somebody fights for it. This is a heavenly task. What Zulfikar Ali Bhutto had done, this is not an ordinary task. In the history of man-kind the prophets have fought for the rights of the people. After the last Prophet of God (peace be upon him) this task has been given to persons. That special person, in my personal point of view in the 20th century was Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. He has done this job, he has performed this duty.


FN: If I were to go back to what compelled you to join Bhutto, it would be the message of equality that he brought and you mentioned the lower classes?

JB: He has given us the consciousness to understand what your rights in society are and to fight for them.

FN: But when you said the lower classes, is that how you defined yourself at that time?

JB: I define everybody in Pakistan like that, except the feudals and their cultural politics. I define everything as lower class. Because politics was monopolized by the feudal lords. It had little participation of the public, they had no say in politics and they never tried for it, they were not allowed to try for it.

Most of the beneficiaries, as result of the struggle of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto were the downtrodden. That is the answer of your question. Was it only for the very humble classes or do you include the other persons? I include all the persons. But mostly it was for the downtrodden. For whom a lot of respect came as a result of his struggle. Am I clear? Have I answered your question?

FN: Yes you are very clear. What I am getting at is who were you at that time? How did you see yourself?

JB: I belonged to a middle class family. My relatives, my family members they were stopping me from coming in to politics. They said to me, “why are you trying for this? You don’t know, you are not a fit man for politics. Politics doesn’t belong to you and people like you. You will have no place in politics” But when I saw the ideas of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto’s struggle I was of the confirmed opinion that no, Bhutto is right, and later on my thoughts were confirmed.

People like me are now acceptable around the party. It was never there, only because of Bhutto. It could not even be thought. If we exclude the struggle of Bhutto, the status would have been the same as now. No change would have occurred. Because everybody was making compromises with the feudals, with the bureaucrats, with the generals. It was the same as the arrangement made at the time of the British rulers, submit to them, be respectable and enjoy the status. This was not the phenomena of Bhutto. He said, struggle for your rights and enjoy the respect. Bring about change which he brought about.

FN: When was the first time that you were arrested?

JB: I was first arrested in 1968 during the movement which was launched and led by the students’ community in Pakistan. At Lahore, I was leading the movement. I was President of the Hailey College of Commerce. I was one of those who made an inter-collegiate body and led the movement.

FN: And whom were you arrested by?

JB: By the police station in old Anarkali where my college was situated. They caught me. But they just kept me in the police station. They never took me to jail. I was not taken to jail in those days. I was for the first time taken to jail in 1970. In 1970 I was elected President of the students’ union of Punjab University. General Yahya Khan sabotaged the elections, stopped the results, arrested me and I was sentenced for one year and put in to Shahpur jail, district Sargoda. Whole year of 1970 when Bhutto was campaigning for the elections in Pakistan, I was at district jail Shahpur, where he deputed some of the local leaders in to power. Then at the end of 1970s, few days after the elections, I was released along with other PPP leaders who were in jail, Malik Ghulam Nabi, Maulana Kausar Niazi, Amanullah, and a few others…we were all in jail and then we came out after the elections.

In 1971, General Yahya Khan again arrested me. Because I was struggling again to contest the elections. I submitted my nomination paper. He asked me not to submit it and I said no I will submit it. I submitted my paper and he arrested me.

FN: If I could ask you. What were they so upset about or afraid of…of you?

JB: Why they were afraid of me? That is a question which can be put to them. Actually they were not afraid of me. They were afraid of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. We were his power. Students were the main power and factors in the early politics of Bhutto. All others came very late. There were very few when Zulfikar Ali Bhutto started in politics. They all came late. In the early days there were only the students. No body else was with Bhutto except the advocates and the students. They came gradually, one by one. As soon as he started becoming popular, successful and it was visible that he’s going to be the future leader of Pakistan. Then the political minds started chasing him and many of them joined him one after the other.

FN: And then after that…your next arrest happened?

JB: Then they released me after the University elections. Then in 1971 the crisis broke out in East Pakistan. In 1972 I did my law and I started teaching at Hailey College of Commerce as a part time lecturer of mercantile law and I started my practice as well. I established my office in 1972, at 15 Turner Road, opposite the high court which has just been demolished two months ago by the Lahore High Court. That was the office. So after 30 years…all the things were made with a lot of difficulty all the things are spoilt by others easily. So this is a play with people like us, who don’t submit, it’s a historical thing, for all those who don’t submit….why we should submit? We submit to all mighty God, not to this.

FN: Now after the 1977 coup?

JB: I was the first to be arrested. 8th of August 1977. On the 7th of August Zulfikar Ali Bhutto arrived at the Lahore airport. I organized a big procession at the Lahore airport. So they lodged an FIR. They gave me a charge sheet that I was leading a procession on the arrival of Mr. Bhutto at the Lahore airport. They arrested me. On the 11th of August they sentenced me to one year and whips. On 3rd of September, Bhutto was arrested and came to Kot Lakpat. He came to the same cell where I was putting up. I was with Bhutto until 1978 when he was shifted to Rawalpindi jail. In 1978 I came out. I was again arrested. They arrested me because I toured with Benazir Bhutto in Punjab and I went with her to Sargoda city where we had a big public meeting. So we were arrested, she was also arrested later after two days from Sahiwal.

FN: For those of us who may not remember who “they” are…can you describe for us who arrested you…who was actually carrying out the arrests?

JB: It is always the police which arrest the people. But this is not the police which arrest the people. This is the orders by which the police arrest people like us. Police is not an independent factor that they can arrest anybody they like. Of course the rulers they ask the police to arrest the people. In any witch hunt campaign the police is the motivating force to arrest by the order of others. So this is what happens everywhere, and in the society of Pakistan also.

FN: You became pretty famous during the 1977-1979 period for one particular act which you performed as a form of political protest, and that was to walk around the jail without your shirt on so the world could see the lashes on your back…

JB: I was whipped inside the jail, outside the cell of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. We raised the slogan of “Jeeyea Bhutto (Long Live Bhutto)” outside his cell. That came in the papers, the digests. So there were many factors... You use the word “famous” I feel shy…no I feel shy. That gave me acknowledgement…I use this word.

So many protests we lodged. See the Zia period, most of time…until 1985 I was in jail. For the last time in 1987. In 1988 we were in government.

FN: If we go back to your jail years under Zia…there were incidences of torture that political prisoners underwent..

JB: Yes torture was included as part of the arrests and they took us to the torture cell at CIA Lahore, Chunamandi. Then we were taken to Shahi Fort Lahore. We were in the hot summer without a fan. We were kept there for more than 3 months. That was a period of torture for more than 3 months at Shahi Qilla Lahore.

FN: If you don’t mind telling us..what were the forms of torture that were deployed and by whom?

JB: At CIA Lahore they hanged me against the roof upside down. What bigger torture could be than that? More than that…when you hang somebody upside down against the roof…very terrible…very terrible…not for much time. It’s not possible to leave somebody for more time and keep them alive. It was for little bit of time, but it was there.

We were not criminals. If they abuse us, if they slap us even that was torture for us. We were not dacoits. We are political workers. Educated, political workers. We have been immersed as a result of a political process. We have not looted the politics of Pakistan; we have gone through the test and trials. Gone through a process from school to college from college to politics. What harm we have given to them? So it doesn’t look nice on their part to treat the political workers like this. They have left behind many who were the real culprits and ran away.

FN: Inside the jail…were you subject to interrogation?

JB: No, not inside the jail. We were subject to interrogation at Shahi Qilla Lahore at Chunnamandi, there in 1980-81. 1977 we were simply caught. We were given the punishment and the whips by the military courts. Oh yes, it was the military courts.

FN: It must be difficult for you to describe, but what were you thinking? What did you go through when you were subjected to this punishment?

JB: I am a very realistic man. I have read history where such people made the commoners their victims with the same manner in the past. So I think this is part of all atrocities by such rulers who are absolute tyrants. This is despotism which I faced all the time.

FN: The first time you went through detention, arrest, torture…and so you knew what you were facing the next time it happened. So what you are saying is that it was a choice that you made?

JB: Yes. The University authorities gave the choice in the jail also as a student leader when I went to jail for the first time in 1970. So they gave me the choice. They told me that I should leave politics. I should forget leading the students. I said no, what I have done is correct. I shall follow my path. They gave me a choice. That is the reason I am telling you in one sentence that I opted for this. Choice is even now there in the politics of Pakistan, there are many options, many choices, but there are very few people who close the other choices and options, like I have closed.

FN: You seem to be very sanguine, very calm, and very distant from it almost? Is it because so much time has past? Is it difficult for you to talk about it?

JB: No I don’t feel it’s difficult to talk about. But I don’t want to seem angry over the bitter realities of the world…which has gone in the past. I am one of the players on the stage but this has been done to human beings in the past also several times. I have read history. Secondly, I have opted for this myself. There are other ways also. I know many with little bit of qualities and learning in them and an ability to deliver to their masters and they have adapted and gone with them. Everybody has got the option. So have I. But I have opted my way. What I think is respectable from my part. So I am calm.

FN: When you were given the punishment of lashing. Was Mr. Bhutto aware that you had been whipped?

JB: I was arrested on 9th August, 1977 for leading a procession at Airport Lahore on the arrival of Mr. Bhutto, two days earlier, and was sentenced by a military court two days after a summary trial, and was taken to Kot lakhpat jail, Lahore. Mr. Bhutto was brought to Kot Lakhpat Jail, after being arrested on 3rd of Sept, 1977. He was bailed out by the Lahore High Court on 13th September and re-arrested on 17th September and was brought to the same cell of Kot lakhpat jail. He was kept in the same cell adjacent to condemned cells and gallows where I was put up before his arrival. The jail authorities shifted me on the other side of the jail. It was during that period when the murder trial against him was on. Day to day hearing by Lahore High Court and Martial law regime was tormenting him. The day I was lashed Bhutto first only knew that they are preparing to whip somebody outside his cell, but whom, he did not know. Bhutto was informed about me by his attendant, who himself was a prisoner, when he was peeping through the door and saw the jail authorities putting me on the wooden frame for lashing. I was beaten in the presence of a military official deputed to see the infliction practically and personally. Thus Bhutto also knew that they are going to whip me outside his cell. When I raised the slogan “Jeay Bhutto” instead of crying with pain, then Bhutto felt the pain because after some of time, on an available opportunity the dispenser of the jail conveyed to me Bhutto's feeling on all this happenings, and his message of encouragement. He told me that Bhutto said this act was done with the purpose of giving him mental torture by beating his comrades.

FN: Where were you when you heard the news of Mr. Bhutto's hanging and what was your first reaction?

JB: I was at Kot Lakhpat jail, Lahore on 3rd April, 1979 when I came to know from the wardens that Mr. Tara Masih, the hang-man has been called at Rawalpindi central jail to execute Mr. Bhutto. Such rumors were part of jail routines in those days but were very worrying and upsetting. On the 4th of April, while I was sitting with late Justice(r) Mr.Arif Iqbal Bhatti, then President PPP, Lahore and an inmate, we put on All India Radio. The announcer was speaking on the life of Mr. Bhutto and his achievement, first we could not understand and after few minutes, it came as a very big shock of my life and for a while I was senseless. There were almost all leaders of PPP of the time in the jail, who gathered in our room in the jail and mostly were crying sadly. At 10:15 in the news Radio Pakistan also confirmed the news of his death.

FN: After choosing this path as a young man of detention, lashes, torture…did you experience change as a person? Did you feel yourself a changed man?

JB: Definitely. I feel more maturity. Definitely, day by day.

FN: And how do you define this maturity?

JB: I was very sentimental and cruel some (sic) sometime in my college days. I was thought to be in the eyes of others a firebrand. But with the passage of time and going through the test and trials and all this evolutionary process…I have been tolerant. I have learned patience. That is a very big reward which I have gotten in my life.

FN: How do you feel your relationships to the world changed? Once you got out of jail or when you came out after years?

JB: This was a very good experience actually because you can judge people in good days and bad days both. Your relatives, your blood relations. So this is the sort of blessing in disguise also. Yes, I know where everybody stands. There were many people whom I never knew what sort of person they are, they were not known to me. Like a blessing they came near me during my bad days. They started coming, now they are part of my life. Many new workers, young persons. They came to me in jail, during my trial. They tried to share my hardships by offering their cooperation. So I have seen my very close relatives deserting me, but these are all my years in life. I know who is who. Actually, all people in the world who have gone to jail they have learnt much. Nehru in his book, “Glimpses of World History”, has written that “ prison is the most exclusive school of learning”, so then one for many years undergoes such sort of circumstances, in this exclusive school of learning, you get something.

FN: What year did you get married?

JB: 1977. April 1977. August 1977 after four months of marriage I was arrested. My son was born was on January 20th, 1978 when I was in jail. I was with Zulfikar Ali Bhutto when my son Ali was born. Mrs. Bhutto was very kind enough to visit my home and she named the boy on the direction of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. The child was named Zulfikar Ali Bader.

FN: The choice you made must have been difficult for your family.

JB: It was a difficult choice. But what was the other choice? That would be a meaningless effort. I could never adopt such a thing. My mind was actually in such state of affairs that I think my mind gave me the way that I should go in this order. The fixed order, the order fixed by all mighty god.

FN: How does your family respond to that?

JB: So much time has gone. They have gotten used to it. This question has gone. More than 30 years have gone. There were soldiers in the past who used to go from their homes and come back after 20-30 years, at least I used to come after a few years. You can call me a soldier of democracy. A soldier for your rights…the rights of the people.

FN: That is how you define yourself?

JB: Yes, I define myself as a soldier for the rights of the people. For their equality, for their happiness. Defined in the American constitution. Equality, democracy, justice, fundamental rights. These are the requirements of a modern age. We are being deprived. We have been converted in to a very backward society in the modern age. It is the people of a society which fight for their rights as a democracy. If the society, all of us will be the slaves of our wishes and make petty compromises for ourselves and our families, then who will fight for the rights of the coming generations and humanity at large? There are people who have done this task in the past, there should be someone to carry out this task in the present also. You can call me a soldier of this.

FN: Now coming to the present generation and the present time which we are in…do you think Pakistan by and large remembers you as a political prisoner or prisoner of conscience?

JB: To remember somebody here as a prisoner of conscience or as a political worker our society doesn’t have such values. Our society has been de-politicized after a certain period of time. These are the values of all developed societies which you are talking about..

FN: When you were in jail did any human rights organization help you?

JB: No human rights organization came to me. Once may be someone from Amnesty came. I was once mentioned somewhere, very bleakly. Most of the persons of these human rights organizations are just cosmetic managers of the human rights organization. They drink in the evenings and go to parties and go and see certain cultural buildings in the morning that is how they make contacts. They don’t contact the ones who deserve attention. I’ve not seen anyone. There are few of course whose work I must appreciate. People like Asma Jehangir, Afrasiab, I.A Rehman…of all of them, there are few persons. Mostly, they have entered just as opportunists entering in to politics in Pakistan. This is the same gateway.

FN: What about locally…did anyone help you here, any human rights activist?

JB: Oh no. There was so much pressure on society; people would run away at the mention of our names. One would feel pity for the human rights people for what they were going through. It was the dictatorship of General Zia. It was not a developed society of Europe. The police would pick someone up and they would disappear for 2 years, only be heard of in newspapers, magazines in brochures in the name of human rights. Their protests would appear in the newspapers…this is not a practical thing. Theory has nothing to do with practical politics. In the practical politics you have to show some practical action, what have they shown? I may be wrong…I hope to God I am wrong…that my impression is wrong…that they have really done something, but I am giving you my impression.

FN: But in your experience you did not feel that anyone was trying to help you?

JB: Look I was in jail for so many years…I know so many people in the party. Just mentioning a few names does not complete the mission of human rights. You should take as a whole, not pick and choose a few names…that oh, we’ve found a few people and went to their house where the walls were falling and the roof was leaking and we’ve put on a few band aids…There were about 5 or 10 people with me who were whipped. We were all political prisoners. I don’t think they went to any of our homes or came to jail to meet anyone. May be they mentioned someone in the report…I don’t know. But generally not.

Human rights has no position in Pakistan. As much as it deserves attention it is being dealt with in an equally harsh way. It is all cosmetic. We should fight despotism. Human rights organizations should also fight against despotism. Indications are not enough, does not serve the purpose of human rights.

FN: Have you ever had a dialogue with Human rights agencies or have you ever said this to them..to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan?

JB: I have said this to them many times in meetings and discussion or when I meet them at weddings but not like this in detail as you are giving me the opportunity to do. In the presence of others they think as if these sentences will cause them harm, so they would ignore them, and I would also try not to embarrass anyone in public. My purpose is not to accuse, my purpose is to make them aware of their responsibilities …this is more than that. It’s not just about a statement. You are leading the noble cause of safe guarding human values…safe guard does not mean to only give a statement…this is what I want to convey through you.

FN: What for you was the most trying period for you?

JB: I have always been through a very difficult period; politics in Pakistan has always been very difficult.

FN: Personally, as Jehangir Bader as a man, as a politician if you were to identify the most difficult period what would that be?

JB: Actually all times were difficult. What I have undergone, all were very difficult. If I were to analyze one period and then another at another time, both seem to be very difficult. So I have always gone through a very tough time. Politics in Pakistan is very difficult. I don’t think that anywhere in any part of the world politics is so difficult as it is in Pakistan. Here you can be a thief, you can be the worst social evil of the society you will be tolerated by the rulers. But to be a politician and a politician of a kind who demands equality and democracy and justice is intolerable.

FN: Can you describe any period in jail when you felt it was time for you to stop and do something else?

JB: Oh no. Never. I have taken it as a war which has been thrust upon me. When we have opted it then we should go in to a nice fight. A good battle. Not crying, not complaining. So patience is a big lesson in such struggle. Without proper patience you will be confused because what have we done to them? What problem have we given to such persons? That we belong to somebody whom they don’t like? We stand for human values which they don’t want to give. We believe in such systems which are real for the downtrodden and are not suitable for them. Either we should stop speaking or we should be tolerant in bearing all this.

FN: How did you spend your days and nights in jail..what got you through from one day to another?

JB: For about 20 months, 2 years now I was in NAB custody…I have written a book. “How to be a Leader.” I wrote and completed this in jail. Before we used to pass the time by reading. One M.A, I completed in jail, in 1979 I completed an M.A in political science in jail, because I was sitting around uselessly and said come on lets complete an M.A. That’s how I passed my time.

FN: If you were to tell us about the state of human rights in Pakistan today vs. when you were going through the tough period under Zia, how would you classify today vs. the Zia period?

JB: The intensity was more during Zia’s time. In nature there is no difference. The style is the same; the methods of arrest are the same. Procedures too are almost the same. Will of the ruler, without going in to depth. What did we do during the Zia era? Against Azam? What did we do against Yahya? What have we done or said to these people? We say that justice should be given to all. With us as well. If we ask for justice for all then we ask it for ourselves as well, but we ask it for others first. But this does not mean that injustice should be done to us.

Look justice is the biggest game in the world, the biggest. There is no religion which has not fought for the oppressed. Not a single prophet has come who has not fought for the oppressed people. Not single religion that has not given equality the number one priority, equality means social and economic justice. Now when all the prophets spoke about justice for the oppressed people and fought for that, then what is our issue. If you are chosen for this task then our perspective is completely different.

FN: So you believe you were chosen for this task?

JB: Yes! I believe this as I believe in God. “Divine Right” and “Divine Duty.” Divine right is a theory which the kings of the world used to rule the people, for the absolute rule. They said that we have been sent by god to rule. In answer to this I say, those who oppose the theory of divine right or those who oppose this, they perform the divine duty. To oppose is their divine duty. Bhutto has done this.

FN: I would like to ask you about leadership in the context of those who have suffered jail and torture for political beliefs or activities. Many fear that those who have suffered will come in to power wanting retribution and the cycle of retribution will continue…

JB: Oh no no no…this is not what the People’s Party will do. We don’t think of such political victimization. If today we are the victims we will not make them the victims tomorrow. The question does not arise. Inshallah, we will not make anybody a victim. But we want to do three things, these are important. Victimization is a small game…we are going for a big play..and that is to organize Pakistan and to organize the people of Pakistan. Why should we fall in to such a small game of victimization? These victimization people will disappear. We want to organize society as other developed states have done. This will be our struggle.

FN: Do you think society can really move forward without taking stock of its past? Like South Africa has done with the truth and reconciliation commission.

JB: Justice is a fundamental thing for which we are struggling. When a there is a will then we can achieve justice. It is something we must give.

FN: When you went to jail under Zia, in your estimation how many political prisoners went to jail with you?

JB: About 300 or 400 during the Zia period. Along with Bhutto there were close to 500. At that time PPP was fighting alone against General Zia’s dictatorship. There was no other party fighting with us.

FN: Do you think you received justice after you came out of jail?

JB: Oh no no. Justice has not come here yet, it has not come to that juncture in this country where justice would be attained. But we are striving and working and struggling for this. It has not come yet, we have not attained it yet, but it does not mean that we have let it go. Justice is the priority.